After the Boom: Can the World Cup Lift Women’s Soccer?

In Botland. Botland? Because they live in Scotland. Nope. Try that again.

No. That's right. It's Botland. It's Botland. I love it.

Way to go. You've coined a new term.

Welcome back listeners to another episode of Laces Out Loud. I'm Pamitha and as always I'm joined with Gurushabd.

Hello.

And Alli.

Hi.

Well, we are recording this early because Ali and myself will be traveling to North Carolina the weekend of July 11 to watch the Washington spirit play the North Carolina Courage. And normally, gather on a Sunday, and we're not gonna be able to do that while we're out of town. So this is a stacked World Cup break slash start of the second half of NWC NWSL season podcast just for you.

And we look forward to our regularly scheduled recording resuming once the tournament Are

you going down to North Carolina for Ashley Sanchez or for the Spirit?

Oh, great question. Ashley Sanchez.

Okay. Yeah. That's what I thought.

We miss her. I mean, I'm very happy that she is having the amazing season that she has. It'll be fun to see her play, but I will have to be rooting for her, but also not to score any goals. I don't know. I haven't quite figured out how to do that yet.

I

would think tricky. It's

I think a four three spirit win with Ashley Sanchez getting a hat trick.

Oh, I mean, she does tend to score against the Spirit,

so Yeah. Yeah.

We just need to score more.

Yeah. She just punished the Reign.

Sorry about that.

Bad.

Yep. Yeah.

She's, you know, obviously it was a huge loss for us, and I don't think we expected that we would have Croix Bethune waiting in the wings, but now we've lost Croix to Kansas City, and that void remains.

I don't know though, does it? I think Leicy Santos is killing it.

I love Leicy. There's no question, I love Leicy. I will support Leicy forever, but Ashley Sanchez, our Pickle Ashley, right, draft player, like she's just just will always be considered part of the Spirit family.

Oh, of course. Yeah.

Yeah. And, yeah, so this is what this would be two weeks ago when North Carolina played the rain. I'm so sorry that she thumped you guys.

Yeah. It's okay.

I'm sorry.

We're a building year.

Yeah. Yes.

That's how you make yourself feel better in these seasons.

Yes. That's at least what racing Louisville is telling themselves, we think, after another We'll see. Yeah. Well, yeah. So that's where we'll be down there.

That'll be a lot of fun. I mean, we're gonna do our best to try to get some fun in person content recorded, but no promises, because as you all know, we are technologically challenged. But we're getting there. That's what matters. So anyway, by the time you all are listening to this, the exciting news about Gotham FC moving into the new Etihad Stadium in Queens will be a week and a half old, but we are very excited that they announced that.

For all the grief that we give Gotham on our little pod corner, it's really impressive what they're doing. Assembling a roster, what they're doing for the sport broadly, the investments that they're making. I think being a fan of a team like Washington where you see similar investments being made by ownership, it's great to see other teams doing it, and we have to let go of the idea that Washington should be the only franchise making those types of investments.

No, no. I don't want them to be the only ones making those investments. I want them to be paving the way for others to do the same, and we're seeing it in a lot of places, not just Gotham. What the Longs are doing in Kansas City too, I think that is all all elevating the game. I also think it's interesting.

You know, I know that there's a little bit of consternation about moving the team out of New Jersey since it's always been there, and I hope that they are able to as successfully do that as the spirit did in moving from playing up in Maryland in a stadium that seats about 5,000 to moving down to Audi Field in a stadium that seats 20,000. I so I hope that, you know, they go from sometimes selling out 5,000 to often selling out 20,000 or however many it will seat.

Yeah. I think it'll broaden their fan base. Think they're gonna get more fans with this move. Yeah. I know a lot of the New Jersey fans are bummed.

They're not all gonna be able to renew their tickets and get out to Queens every weekend, but it's a good move for Gotham. Sorry to the New Jersey fans.

As a former New Jersey resident, there's a tragic history of sports teams leaving the state, going to New York or elsewhere. For all the teams that have come to New Jersey from other places, we've seen people leave, and the Jets and the Giants, the NFL teams, while they play in East Rutherford, New Jersey, that is still very much Northern New Jersey. Southern Jersey is more Philadelphia line, so I do agree with Gurushabd. I think this will ultimately broaden the fan base for the for Gotham. Sorry to the folks in New Jersey who aren't gonna be able to be a part of that as consistently as they would have liked, especially back in the Sky Blue FC days, but it's the price of growth.

I was reading the reporting, I think 3,000,000 more people will have access within a seventy five minute commute to the new stadium in Queens. Wow. No question, like because it's also the home of NYC FC that the folks that were citing it, the folks that were making this investment, they have to know what they're getting into in terms of appeal to the fan Mhmm. Accessibility to the fans. So it's left to be seen, but good for them.

Yeah.

Now is there room enough people for New Jersey to get an expansion team in the future?

Oh, I hope so. I hope so, and and I hope that they do it in a way where it becomes the de facto Philadelphia team, which is usually the other way around. Usually Philadelphia gets it as the de facto South Jersey, Central Jersey team. Let's put one in let's put one in Princeton, New Jersey, baby.

Nice. Speaking of moving stadiums, Pamitha, earlier today, you were talking about how Green Bay did this when they moved stadiums in a way to kind of try to help out the fans from where the stadium was originally.

Yeah. So the Green Bay Packers in the NFL, for a period of time, they played some home games in Milwaukee, which for those of you who don't know Wisconsin geography, is considerably south of Green Bay. Ultimately, a decision was made for financial reasons that home games are going to be played permanently in Green Bay, but the Packers still maintained two separate season ticket plans in part to honor the time that they spent in Milwaukee. And so one of those trenches of plans is made up of largely former Milwaukee season ticket holders, and then they have like a three or four game package that allows them to come up to Green Bay and like watch the game. So it's obviously not ideal, you know, can't go to the, you know, Milwaukee County Stadium, which doesn't exist anymore for games to watch the Packers, but at least they have access to Lambo instead of just being completely shut out.

So we'll see. We'll see. Hopefully, there's blueprints for Gotham FC to follow, and again, more investment in soccer. Yeah. Always a positive.

Keep keep the existing fans, add some more.

Yeah. Speaking of adding some more, at the time of this recording, we do know that the US men's national team will not be advancing to the finals of the men's world cup, but it has been quite a journey seeing so many people who are not soccer fans coming onboard this bandwagon over the last three or four weeks, and sharing on the disappointment in the performance against Belgium losing four to one, but also hopefully being converted to more permanent soccer fans. And it got us to wondering, what will the lasting legacy of this World Cup in America, Canada, and Mexico be as it pertains to the women's game? And I know both of you have some thoughts that you'd like to share. Alli, do wanna start?

Oh, sure. Well, I'll start with the one that is pretty obvious for me, if you've heard me on the podcast, which I would like to see a a big jump in the investment on research around women and girls in sport, as well as then the next step of that being an increase in the women's specific products. Last week, we talked about shoes and cleats that are made for women's feet, not just smaller versions of men's shoes. So I think it would be great to see a a growing recognition that that needs to accompany the growth in the fan base.

Gurushabd, what about you?

Yeah. I'd like to just see the culture in The US be more soccer oriented. I have a coworker, and she watched one Haaland clip on Instagram, and now most of her Instagram is soccer and Haaland clips. So she can't be the only one, right?

Amazing. Yes.

So hopefully, culturally, US can step on board with the rest of the world.

Yeah. Can I just?

I love that

Can I add on to that for a moment? This, like, incredible pop culture moment, it shouldn't happen every four years. Like, they're like, we should find a way as a country to capitalize on this year over year, the way other countries do.

Yeah. I love the I love that Haaland was your example because there's an incredible, I believe, AI generated anime representation of Norway's matches with Haaland as this, like, over the top anime hero just mowing his way through all the competition. It it's it's incredible. And like that kind of, you know, creativity always exists around the World Cup, but I would love for like to your point, like, let's let's that somehow. That would be amazing.

But I also think

that for US, I was about to say fans, but for US people who are not soccer fans, they got that interest turbocharged this year because we're hosting. And so whether it's because they see the funny clips of Haaland and what he looks like charging down his opponents, or because they live in Botland Botland? Because they live in Scotland. Nope. Try that again.

No. That's right. It's Botland. It's Botland. I love it.

Way to go. You've coined a new term.

Because they live in the city formerly known as Boston.

For Botland. Woah. Giving it up for Botland. Woah. Amazing.

Things

are going great.

Those famous Botland plaid socks.

Yep. Yep.

Yep. So, yeah, because they live in Boston, which was, you know, taken over by Scottish fans,which, you know, the city loved. I just think that it is it is it's really been fun to see just people who don't know much about soccer suddenly be excited about it because of seeing the game, the fans, all of these things, whatever it is, the Instagram post. That's fun.

Yeah. And so I would I would say that in addition to like the the cultural moment continuing, I would love for major corporations that have a vested interest in the financial backing of soccer to jump on board, and not just allow this to be the flavor of the decade. I want, I think it was Nike, can't even remember, all I know is the Timothee Chalamet commercial with Trinity Rodman in the front seat. I want

Duh. Adidas. Adidas. Adidas. Adidas is her sponsor.

Yeah. Don't don't give Nike that, no.

I'm sorry.

I'm an Adidas fan.

I also am an Adidas fan. I'm sorry. Well, but I would love for Adidas to to now have another commercial where Chalamet and Trinity get in the car and be like, alright, on to the next one. And they're driving to another playground where there's another match going on, and it's all about the women's game, and not just for next world cup in 2027, but in perpetuity. Like, hearing again, we're this is two weeks out of the the loss to Belgium.

But living in this moment where people are dissecting about what's wrong with American soccer and our inability to perform at that level for the for the men, it really comes back to, okay, well, what are we investing in our communities? Like, where where are we raising the levels of investment, of engagement, of involvement? And the and for every conversation I've had with soccer fans from, like, the grassroots level who are like, oh, we love this, wanna keep going. I've had similar conversations with fans who are like, I'm just not really a soccer fan. It's like, okay, cool.

Well, isn't for you, but it is for everybody else. So advertisers, marketers, businesses, understand your audience is growing, it's not stagnating, and then let's tailor stuff to those people so that we can keep this momentum going. Sorry, I was really passionate about that part of it and Gurushabd when you were like, the culture, I'm like, yes, but it shouldn't just be on the fans, it's gotta be like, gotta be more, like, you know. So, anyway, that's me. There's there's

so And many other things too

It needs to just steep into The US, and I met people at watch parties at the bars across Bellingham, and a lot of them were like, I have no clue what's going on, but I'm here, and I am watching.

Love it.

-And I'm like, Okay, we just need a little 101, have fun with it, watch for this, and show people, like, this is what we're watching for. It's not just about the goals. It's about these little plays or moves.

Absolutely.

Exactly.

We'll just coach them along.

Exactly. And I think to add to what you all have both been saying about the role of, you know, the companies in this, I think there needs to be a better understanding and acknowledgment from the companies, from FIFA, of what their audience wants when it comes to the Women's World Cup. Because, you know, we experienced at the last Women's World Cup what a poor job they did in terms of having enough, you know, jerseys available, scarves available, you know, the the materials just weren't there, and when they provided them, they sold out in seconds.

So or maybe minutes. Sorry. So it would be nice for them. And and it's not a secret how quickly the women's game is growing and the investment in women's sports and the interest in women's sports writ large. So it's not like that's not there.

So I would like the companies, FIFA, whoever is involved in that marketing to actually take note and act on that.

And hopefully, because, we talked about this in an earlier podcast, like there are there are analyses out there

that show the growth of women's sports globally is substantial, and that advertisers and businesses are taking notice.

Mhmm.

So hopefully there will be data coming out of this that we can go back at, and I don't I mean, I don't know. Gurushabd, do you know somebody who likes data?

I know someone who loves data and spreadsheets.

Spreadsheets.

Maybe that's something that we can track and take it like a look at in in a more longitudinal way Mhmm. After we get some distance on this World Cup. Because I do think there's there's an argument to be made that a lot of businesses are concerned about able their ability to convert fans from the moment into something more long term. And that magic formula that allows there to be conversion from I've gone to one game to I'm now going to every game

Mhmm.

Is would be great. Right? If there's a way to unlock that for for for folks that care about it.

Yeah. Well, I think that's where there's a huge benefit to the NWSL returning to play right now. The World Cup's still going on. There's people who may say, I've just watched soccer on TV now because of the World Cup, or maybe went to one match. Where can I keep watching it?

Come to NWSL games. I wondered that. I didn't get a chance to talk to them, but there was a family sitting in our section at the Spirit game last weekend that were all wearing US jerseys. There were like six of them. And I wondered if, you know, the World Cup was what made them interested in coming to this match, you know, and I should have talked to them, so hopefully I'll see them again.

Yeah. I hope we see more people showing up to live games, especially since this World Cup was priced out for a lot of us. And, you know, the men's games are also priced. It's that you can afford to go. So, yeah, more people show up to a game if this World Cup got you interested.

There's a game near you somewhere, whether it's the NWSL, the MLS, the USL, you can find a game.

Yeah. And and when they come to games, I hope that we see members of the US men's national team showing up to support the NWSL. The way that NWSL players and US women's national team players were were showing up to support the men's team and the tournament broadly. So because I think that type of gender diversity represented in support for soccer is critically important. We talk about looking at the demographics of fans at NWSL games.

For those who are critics, the assumption is, oh, it's just a bunch of little girls and their moms who go watch NWSL. That's ridiculous. And we want we want that to be more I want that to be more visible.

Mhmm. Yeah. That's a great point. The the women really did show up for the men, so hope to see that repeated. Something else that I would love to see with this increased interest is growth in the soccer pipeline.

And not just looking at the existing youth pipeline and pouring more money into that, but expanding that. I do feel on both men's and women's soccer that soccer in The US is pay to play. And if you can have enough money to pay to be on the best teams and be traveling and be seen, then you're getting into the pipeline. But if you don't have the money to do that, then sorry. Good luck.

And I think our nation's love affair with Cabo Verde showed that you can have, you know, a few people who are really good who are getting missed, and so I would love to find a way to make soccer really more inclusive and accessible even when you don't have the money.

Yeah.

Yeah, club sports in The U. S. Have gotten out of hand. They're so expensive, so many travel teams. And then they're also making kids, specialize in a sport real early on, And they just need to let them play, have fun, play multiple sports.

It helps you in all of them, cross training. And, yeah, find a way to make it more affordable and to get scouted without, you know, having your family have to have huge financial struggles just to get you seen.

Yeah, exactly.

And so, I'm also hoping that, you know, with all these other men's countries being promoted, that their women's national teams are also benefiting. With all of this payout, each team, gets so much money from the men's World Cup, you know, once they've been promoted to it. I'm hoping that all the women's teams across the world are seeing some benefit from this.

Yeah. Agreed. I hope so too. One of the benefits that the US Women's National Team will see is thanks to the collective bargaining agreement that they signed recently. So they have a, I guess, a joint CBA with the men now that both teams benefit from the winnings from the World Cup.

And that really benefits the women the most because FIFA pays the men a lot more for how well they do in the World Cup than they do the women. So for example, in 2022, The US men reached the round of 16, and they got 13 million. And in 2019, the women won the World Cup, and they got $4 million. So being able to both benefit from each other's success is a really benefit big benefit to the women. So for 2026, for the men's exit, each team will get $6 million.

And then in 2027, I don't know what the numbers will be, and then that will be split amongst the two. So I don't know if there's any other countries that do that, but I think that is obviously, I wish that FIFA would just pay the women as much as they pay the men, but in lieu of them doing that, it's nice that they have found this balance.

Yeah. And just to give our listeners a sense of how much money we're talking about, the twenty twenty six World Cup has a prize pool of a $168 million that is divvied up. The teams that finish the teams that end exit the group stage get $10 million each. Round of 32, $12 million. Round of 16, $16 million.

The quarter finalists get $20 million. The winner, $51 million dollars.

Wow.

Ooh. Yeah.

And that so, proportion goes to the national team, and then however that national team wants to do it, then a proportion goes to the players. And we are the only country that will then pay out the women's players from the men's pool.

Yeah, and I think or I know that FIFA takes a portion of that, and so of that, what did you say, $15 million, $16 million for exiting where we did? That breaks down to $12 million that's actually going to the teams, and then, yeah, like you said, the teams get some as well as individual payouts.

So I have to clarify, the prize pool is $703 million.

Wow.

There's a $168 million of the total prize pot distributed among competitors regardless of their success on the field. Oh. $2.5 million is given to each nation as preparation money, which is to be used on things like travel, accommodation, and training camps. And then every side also receives a qualification fee of $10 million.

Wow. So you get more just to play in the men's World Cup than to win the women's World Cup seven years ago?

Yeah. Wow.

That's well, I mean, I will say I do like that they're giving money to teams to advance money. I look at some of the teams that don't have as much, so that is good. I'm not complaining about that, but let's make it more equal.

I don't want to make a meme out of this, but there's something to be said about mediocrity of men supporting the brilliance of women.

Yeah.

Far too

I'm not often gonna disagree.

Yeah. Far too often, it is the brilliance of women supporting the mediocrity of men. So, progress? Maybe?

Well, mean, at least in The US where they have decided to split the money.

Yeah. I've got conflicting feelings. Yeah. Yeah.

But, I mean, with the national teams getting money, hopefully other countries, somehow, maybe infrastructure will benefit the women. We'll have to

see kinda how that comes about. I mean, it's something I wanted to get into is the history of women's soccer in Brazil. And hopefully, yeah, they'll see some of this. But with the misogyny in a lot of countries here included, it can definitely be hard for the woman to get any sort of respect or money from this.

Yeah. That's it is a shame. We should definitely do that deep dive on women's soccer in Brazil. I am adjacently fascinated with what Marta's supernatural continuing performance eventually, she's gonna have to step away.

Never. Don't say such a thing.

Okay. So hopefully she doesn't ever have to step away. But in the unlikely event that she does, who's the next Marta in Brazil? Right? And like, for the men, similarly, the question is, okay, who are the next, like, budding superstars?

But from a women's perspective, to your point, like, if there isn't continued support from nations to the their women's teams without that star power, how are they gonna continue to like drive the conversation forward? So anyway, there's a long way of saying I I love that idea. We should totally we should totally dedicate an episode to that.

Love it.

Great. Well, thank you guys. This has been a fun episode. We will be back next week after catching the game with North Carolina for the Spirit. Well, more NWSL news, likely a breakdown of any of the additional drama happening around the men's World Cup, and whatever fun shenanigans we have.

Maybe we'll take a trip up to Botland and see what's going on there. Awesome. Gurushabd , where can folks find us on social?

You can find us on Instagram at Laces Out Loud.

And you can always email us at LacesOutLoudpod@Gmail.com. Thank you all for the support and the comments. We appreciate you listening, and you can get us where you get your podcasts. Alright. Gurushabd, take us out.

Yeah. Everyone, be kind to each other. And from the fans for the game, we'll see you next time on Laces Out Loud.